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Guitar Discussions -> 'Colder' tube amps
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'Colder' tube amps - DeeAa - 02:40 30-11-05
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What do you think, is there a division of 'cold' and 'hot' tube amps, and
what are they? Has anybody ever devised a list of 'warmth' in which the
approximate warmness of the amp determines it's position? Like if the top is
'cold and biting' and lower is soft:
Plexi Marshall modded
Vox AC30
Fender Blues DeVille
Fender Twins, Vibrolux etc.
Ampeg
Mesa/Boogies
Fender Blues Jr.
Other 'vintage' type amps
Where would Hiwatt go? I've never really played one of those.
BUT I am only now noticing that the sounds I like the best come from the
colder end amps; I never liked the sound of my Fenders at all and now I'm
realizing I actually almost hate the 'round' overdrive that the very vintage
amps offer; I want some biting bag end and clear separation of individual
string sounds even in power chords, even if it means a SS amp. BUT you get
nice screaming quality easily with tubes, and I'd like to retain some of the
warmth. So are there any other amps up there near the cold end? I'm thinking
of getting another power amp to use with the Cream Machine - which I really
like for sound but it needs more bottom power - I might build one myself but
what would be the type/sound model to go for? Are there any bright
vox/marshall style tube building kits available? Or should I just get an SS
poweramp again?
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Re: 'Colder' tube amps - David Martel - 12:38 30-11-05
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DeeAa,
Not sure what you are asking but the bias voltage of the tubes affects
the operating temperature. In many amps this voltage is adjustable and does
affect the amps overall sound.
Dave M.
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Re: 'Colder' tube amps - Keith Adams - 13:28 30-11-05
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As mentioned cold or hot refers to the amount of voltage that reaches
the power tubes (bias). An amp biased cold will be down somewhat on the
power its capable of producing. It will also lack headroom....meaning
it will go into overdrive (distort) at a lower volume than it would if
biased hotter. The same applies whether the amp is 1/2 watt or 200
watt. I dont know about the Hiwatt amps being made currently but the
old ones were things of beauty with great care going into the wiring
and chassis layout. Milspec. They were handbuilt by one man. I
think what you're looking for is an amp built along the lines of a
Tweed Champ but with more speaker. A couple more that have the sound
are Tweed Harvards and Princetons. Also the Brown Princeton.
Old Harmony or any of the low wattage amps made by Valco will also fit
the bill.
"DeeAa" <deeaa@poista.dnainternet.net.INVALID> wrote in message
news:438d578c$0$9440$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
What do you think, is there a division of 'cold' and 'hot' tube amps,
and
what are they? Has anybody ever devised a list of 'warmth' in which the
approximate warmness of the amp determines it's position? Like if the
top is
'cold and biting' and lower is soft:
Plexi Marshall modded
Vox AC30
Fender Blues DeVille
Fender Twins, Vibrolux etc.
Ampeg
Mesa/Boogies
Fender Blues Jr.
Other 'vintage' type amps
Where would Hiwatt go? I've never really played one of those.
BUT I am only now noticing that the sounds I like the best come from
the
colder end amps; I never liked the sound of my Fenders at all and now
I'm
realizing I actually almost hate the 'round' overdrive that the very
vintage
amps offer; I want some biting bag end and clear separation of
individual
string sounds even in power chords, even if it means a SS amp. BUT you
get
nice screaming quality easily with tubes, and I'd like to retain some
of the
warmth. So are there any other amps up there near the cold end? I'm
thinking
of getting another power amp to use with the Cream Machine - which I
really
like for sound but it needs more bottom power - I might build one
myself but
what would be the type/sound model to go for? Are there any bright
vox/marshall style tube building kits available? Or should I just get
an SS
poweramp again?
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Re: 'Colder' tube amps - Jim Anable - 13:59 30-11-05
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Keith Adams wrote:
> As mentioned cold or hot refers to the amount of voltage that reaches
> the power tubes (bias). An amp biased cold will be down somewhat on the
> power its capable of producing.
Actually, the opposite is true. You have more potential power biasing
COLDER than hotter. However, you also risk crossover distortion, which
doesn't sound good. But more power and more headroom biased COLDER, not
hotter.
Myself? I'm way more concerned about tone than maximum output. I bias
on the warm side, but not hot enough to severely reduce tube life.
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Re: 'Colder' tube amps - Jim Anable - 14:14 30-11-05
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DeeAa wrote:
> What do you think, is there a division of 'cold' and 'hot' tube amps, and
> what are they? Has anybody ever devised a list of 'warmth' in which the
> approximate warmness of the amp determines it's position? Like if the top is
> 'cold and biting' and lower is soft:
>
> Plexi Marshall modded
> Vox AC30
> Fender Blues DeVille
> Fender Twins, Vibrolux etc.
> Ampeg
> Mesa/Boogies
> Fender Blues Jr.
> Other 'vintage' type amps
>
> Where would Hiwatt go? I've never really played one of those.
To begin with, you already are confusing people about "hot" and "cold."
It looks like you are talking TONE.
Tone is a factor of many things. Amp design, TONE STACK, tube choice,
speaker choice...
The Plexi does have a more biting sound, no doubt about it. I think it
has to do with less preamp distortion than say a 2204, bright preamp
output, and brute power.
I don't have lots of time on hiwatt heads, but I own two different
Hiwatt cabs. One is WARM/dark, the other is balanced/bright. So Hiwatt
depends on your choices, and the era. The warmer cab is from the 70's,
the brighter one is from the 80's.
>
> BUT I am only now noticing that the sounds I like the best come from the
> colder end amps; I never liked the sound of my Fenders at all
Okay, now I'm a bit confused, because many Fenders sound BRIGHT to me.
Of course, it depends on setup, but my Super Reverb can be very, very
bright.
> and now I'm
> realizing I actually almost hate the 'round' overdrive that the very vintage
> amps offer;
Are you talking early single ended amps? That's what I think of when I
read your description. Those amps are great for blues, but not for ROCK.
> I want some biting bag end and clear separation of individual
> string sounds even in power chords, even if it means a SS amp.
Gotcha. You don't like a very saturated single ended type of tone. You
like a more aggressive push/pull type distortion.
You said you haven't tried Hiwatt. Perhaps you should, but you may not
be happy until it is LOUD. Did I mention L O U D?
> BUT you get
> nice screaming quality easily with tubes, and I'd like to retain some of the
> warmth. So are there any other amps up there near the cold end?
Have you played a good Super Reverb at high volume levels? Not mush,
but singing distortion.
? I'm thinking
> of getting another power amp to use with the Cream Machine - which I really
> like for sound but it needs more bottom power - I might build one myself but
> what would be the type/sound model to go for? Are there any bright
> vox/marshall style tube building kits available? Or should I just get an SS
> poweramp again?
If you like that Cream Machine tone, I'd suggest configuring it as a
preamp, no RedBox, then a GOOD noise unit (I prefer Guitar Silencer,
there's a reason why the metal stars used them), then to a GOOD EQ (I
use a rack 1/3 octave), then to a power amp.
Which power amp? I really like my Peavey Classic Series 60/60. It
offers HUGE performance per dollar cost. With an EQ in front of it, you
can get what you want. With 120W of true RMS tube power (I think it's
rated at 5% THD), you have PLENTY of headroom. That EQ is the key, if
you've been less than happy with Peavey power amps in the past.
...or, just shop local craigslist and pick up the best current deal on a
SS power amp. After all, you are getting your power amp distortion in
your Cream Machine. Even though it's a single ended output stage, it
mates well with the high gain preamp.
The question is whether you'd be happier with SS or tubes on your JMP-1.
I'd choose tubes. And if I wanted distortion? The Peavey is fixed
bias. But my tubes actually biased up quite nicely in it. Ideally,
you'd want to install an adjustable bias.
If budget allows, audition VHT, Mesa, Marshall... TUBE power amps.
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Re: 'Colder' tube amps - DeeAa - 15:17 30-11-05
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"Jim Anable" <jim@seattle-attorney.com> wrote in message
news:11orufrsa94r21f@corp.supernews.com...
> To begin with, you already are confusing people about "hot" and "cold." It
> looks like you are talking TONE.
>
Yep, that's what I meant...cold tone meaning - not bright necessary,
but...having clarity, you know, like icicle-glistening highs.
> The Plexi does have a more biting sound, no doubt about it. I think it
> has to do with less preamp distortion than say a 2204, bright preamp
> output, and brute power.
>
I've played one quite a lot, and tested a few, and yeah, they are pretty
biting.
>> BUT I am only now noticing that the sounds I like the best come from the
>> colder end amps; I never liked the sound of my Fenders at all
>
> Okay, now I'm a bit confused, because many Fenders sound BRIGHT to me. Of
> course, it depends on setup, but my Super Reverb can be very, very bright.
>
I guess the 'cold' word is wrong then...yup, the Fenders are bright indeed,
especially the DeVille was very bright.
But it's not 'cold', it's just bright. Cold is...not much of that thick
saturation, but singing, clear yet driven.
> Are you talking early single ended amps? That's what I think of when I
> read your description. Those amps are great for blues, but not for ROCK.
>
Exactly. Absolutely so. Not for me :-) I need to have that
certain...aggression in the sound.
> Gotcha. You don't like a very saturated single ended type of tone. You
> like a more aggressive push/pull type distortion.
>
Yes! Thanks, I could not have said it so well in a million years! So that's
the vocabulary to use. Not sure if I understand the term push/pull correctly
but it seems like exactly what I like.
>> BUT you get nice screaming quality easily with tubes, and I'd like to
>> retain some of the warmth. So are there any other amps up there near the
>> cold end?
>
> Have you played a good Super Reverb at high volume levels? Not mush, but
> singing distortion.
>
No, haven't tried those.
> If you like that Cream Machine tone, I'd suggest configuring it as a
> preamp, no RedBox, then a GOOD noise unit (I prefer Guitar Silencer,
> there's a reason why the metal stars used them), then to a GOOD EQ (I use
> a rack 1/3 octave), then to a power amp.
>
Yeup...now, I do have a HUSH unit...but I wonder if it's broken...hums a
lot...sort of 60-cycle hum/'brr'
I like the JMP-1 / CM combo well enough, they support each other- the CM has
the bite and the singing quality and the JMP adds the bag end and the EQ +
control - but that's in direct line. If I could just add more wattage to the
CM to get some more bottom end I'd be happy as a clam on the seabed. So the
power amp I'd use by mixing the JMP and the CM signals into a poweramp; I
guess running my existing signal outta CM out and into the poweramp.
> ...or, just shop local craigslist and pick up the best current deal on a
> SS power amp. After all, you are getting your power amp distortion in
> your Cream Machine. Even though it's a single ended output stage, it
> mates well with the high gain preamp.
>
I'm leaning towards this for 2 main reasons: I like the tone as it is, just
need more bottom end, no more poweramp sound modding, and also, it would
easily fit in 1 rack space. Been looking at the Velocity series.
> The question is whether you'd be happier with SS or tubes on your JMP-1.
> I'd choose tubes. And if I wanted distortion? The Peavey is fixed bias.
> But my tubes actually biased up quite nicely in it. Ideally, you'd want
> to install an adjustable bias.
I was pretty happy with just the JMP onto an SS head - and now the CM also
gives me that tube bite better.
Hm. I'm hitting meself over the head every day for practically GIVING away
the 120W SS poweramp I had earlier. WHY did I have to sell it for like 30
bucks or so, oh why :-( now I could have needed it, at least for trying it
out. Stupid me...
>
> If budget allows, audition VHT, Mesa, Marshall... TUBE power amps
That's the thing - I find it very hard to justify spending like 700-1000 on
a poweramp...
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Re: 'Colder' tube amps - Keith Adams - 18:54 30-11-05
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Bullshit Unable. Out of curiosity. What are your sources for
information? I'd surely like to know how you came up with your
conclusions on biasing hot or cold.
Your SR needs Beam Blockers or something similar .
"Jim Anable" <jim@seattle-attorney.com> wrote in message
news:11ortj7dp464qfb@corp.supernews.com...
Keith Adams wrote:
> As mentioned cold or hot refers to the amount of voltage that reaches
> the power tubes (bias). An amp biased cold will be down somewhat on
the
> power its capable of producing.
Actually, the opposite is true. You have more potential power biasing
COLDER than hotter. However, you also risk crossover distortion, which
doesn't sound good. But more power and more headroom biased COLDER,
not
hotter.
Myself? I'm way more concerned about tone than maximum output. I bias
on the warm side, but not hot enough to severely reduce tube life.
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Re: 'Colder' tube amps - Jim Anable - 12:59 02-12-05
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Keith Adams wrote:
> Bullshit Unable. Out of curiosity. What are your sources for
> information? I'd surely like to know how you came up with your
> conclusions on biasing hot or cold.
Sometimes it's better to research than attack. Before you make a fool
out of yourself, you ought to do some research on this issue. Hotter
static bias limits total output power, and reduces headroom.
> Your SR needs Beam Blockers or something similar .
I'm more than happy with my Rich Koerner modified SR without putting
funky dispersion devices in front of the speakers.
>
>
> "Jim Anable" <jim@seattle-attorney.com> wrote in message
> news:11ortj7dp464qfb@corp.supernews.com...
> Keith Adams wrote:
>
>
>>As mentioned cold or hot refers to the amount of voltage that reaches
>>the power tubes (bias). An amp biased cold will be down somewhat on
>
> the
>
>>power its capable of producing.
>
>
> Actually, the opposite is true. You have more potential power biasing
> COLDER than hotter. However, you also risk crossover distortion, which
> doesn't sound good. But more power and more headroom biased COLDER,
> not
> hotter.
>
> Myself? I'm way more concerned about tone than maximum output. I bias
> on the warm side, but not hot enough to severely reduce tube life.
>
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